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Lord of the Rings and real life equivalents

Posted by picard578 on October 16, 2016

It should be noted that Tolkien drew various inspirations from real life, and often mixed them together or swapped pieces. As such, finding one single inspiration for any single element of his work is hard to impossible, and is mostly a sign of insufficient research. Tolkien was not a copycat (unlike, e.g. Christopher Paolini) and would alter and shift around even the elements that he did use, but his work is based on actual history and historical events. Here, I will attempt to identify at least some of them, as a thorough research would take too much time.

Numenor = Atlantis

This is the most obvious one. Both are extremely advanced island kingdoms that had for long enjoyed peace and prosperity. But in seeking earthly, material goods both of them embarked on a road of imperialism, conquering and colonizing large parts of the world. Eventually, this brought on the wrath of divine beings (gods / God – Eru), and both islands were sunk in one day, with few survivors escaping and bringing knowledge and civilization to less civilized people (one theory uses Atlantis to explain similarities between Mesoamerican pyramids, early Egyptian pyriamids and Mesopotamian ziggurats – though the most likely explanation is inherent stability and utility of the shape). Aryan race, according to Theosophy, Ariosophy and Nazism, originates from Atlantis, much like superior Numenorean race originates from Numenor. Finally, one of names for Numenor used in the Third Age is “Atalante” – “Downfallen”. Numenoreans in the Third Age had diluted by intermixing with lesser peoples, similar to what had happened to people of Atlantis.

Numenor = Britain

Numenor also has parralels with British Empire. Numenoreans themselves share physical characteristics with Celts, primarily blue eyes, black hair and fair skin tone (the “black Celts” had those characteristics, probably Nemidians; Celtic group with mutations to allow for blonde and red hair appeared much later). Much like Britain, Numenor became a naval colonial power, and fought against enemies from the East, each worse than the last (Imperial Germany, Nazi Germany, Soviet Union for Britain, Mordor for Numenor), but was hardly benevolent itself. Gondor, an offshot of Numenor, suffered due to mixing with lesser peoples and insufficient number of indigenous children, much like had happened to Britain after 1945.

Minas Tirith = Vienna

Both of them were capital cities of states that had lost a lot of ground to Eastern worshippers of darkness (Orcs / Muslims) and were saved by a cavalry charge of Northern allies (Rohirrim / Poles). While Vienna was the seat of the Holy Roman Empire, which claimed continuity from the Roman Empire, Minas Tirith was a seat of Gondor – a continuation of the Numenorean empire. Polish cavalry charge was the largest in history, and Rohirrim cavary charge likewise seems unrivaled in history of the Middle Earth. In fact, Rohirrim 6.000-strong charge is exactly one third the size of the Polish cavalry charge. Both cities were the key to gaining passage to the West after previous “keys” (Osgilliath / Constantinople) had fallen. Much like Poles were not alone in saving Vienna – German forces were also present – Minas Tirith was saved through cooperation of the Rohirrim relief force and the Gondorian territories not under immediate threat, whose forces arrived soon after the Rohirrim did. Besieging force was likewise multicultural, with Ottomans using slave soldiers from across the Empire, and Sauron’s forces containing human allies (Haradrim, Easterlings) in addition to his Orc hordes. Once the tide was turned, the garrison of Vienna sailed forth to attack the Ottomans in the open, which parallels the similar action of Gondorian garrison after the Rohirrim had arrived. Rohirrim arrived just as the Mordor forces had broken the city gates of Minas Tirith, and Mordor forces had to retreat to face the Rohirrim. Likewise, Polish forces had arrived just as the Kara Musrafa had broken walls of Vienna in several places, but the victory eluded him due to the last-minute charge of the Poles. Mordor host was led by Sauron’s second-in-command, the Witch King, while Ottoman host was led by the Grand Vezier. After the battle, Aragorn takes offensive through areas conquered by Mordor, just as Austrians took the offensive through Balkans.

Minas Tirith is known as the White City, and “Vienna” likely derives from the Celtic name Vindobona, which means “white base/bottom”. Vienna is a circular city, with circular walls that were later demolished to create the Ring Road; Minas Tirith is defended by a total of seven circular walls. Vienna had a system of beacons connecting it to other cities to call for help, which was not lit due to Leopold’s neglect.

Mustafa and the Witch King were both defeated by women. September 8-15 is the Octave of the Feast, as the birthday of the Holy Virgin Mary is on September 8. September 11, halfway through the feast, has a long history of ill omen to Muslim conqerors:

September 11, 1565: Great Siege of Malta ended with the destruction of 30.000 Turks by the knights of St. John and Sicilan armies

September 11, 1609: Muslim Expulsion from Spain was announced, thus ending the 800-year Muslim terror

September 11, 1683: Jan Sobieski arrived at the mountains of Kahlenberg and consecrated his troops to Mary. Day later, he annihilated Muslim armies laying siege to Vienna

September 11, 1697: Battle of Zenta, where 30.000 Turks were killed along with the Grand Vizier. As a result, Hungary and Transilvanyja were liberated from Islam, as well as half of the Croatian territory.

For this reason Muslims bombed World Trade Center and Pentagon on September 11, 2001. Witch King was also defeated by a woman – Eowyn, on the same day that the Rohirrim arrived. Whereas Poles came with the Virgin Mary so to speak, Eowyn came with the Rohirrom.

Osgiliath = Constantinople

Both cities were the seats of large empires, and located on strategic waterways (Anduin / Bosphorus) which separated said cities into two parts. Osgilliath was completely abandoned by its populace with the Eastern half being in the hands of the Orcs, who eventually completely conquered it before attacking Minas Tirith. Constantinople of the 15th century was the only remnant of the old Roman Empire (ignoring Trebizond and some parts in the southern Greece), and its eastern parts fell into Ottoman hands long before the western parts did. And while it had a populace of over 500.000 at its greatest extent, it was mostly empty at the time when it finally fell – at the beginning of the siege there were only 50.000 people within the city, including refugees from the other areas. Osgilliath on the other hand was completely empty, with the Western part having become a fortress. Further, Osgilliath is located very close to Mordor, which bears resemblance to Anatolia.

Minas Ithil = Constantinople

However, another city has many similarities to Constantinople. Minas Ithil is the City of the Moon, while symbol of the city of Constantinople was moon. Minas Ithil became residence of the Witch King, while Constantinople became residence of the Ottoman Sultan. Minas Ithil, being on the border of Mordor, was the first defense of the Western lands against Mordor until it fell. Constantinople was the main defense of Europe againt Islam until it, too, fell under darkness. Minas Ithil was renamed into Minas Morgul after being conquered by Mordor, while Constantinople was renamed into Istanbul. After the fall, both cities were seats for the representatives of darkness – the Witch King and the Sultan. A host that attacked Minas Tirith marched out of Minas Morgul, while the host that attacked Vienna marched out of Istanbul.

Osgiliath – Budapest

Osgiliath being Budapest fits with Vienna as Minas Tirith and Istanbul as Minas Morgul. Osgiliath was abandoned and used merely as a fortress by both Gondor and Mordor, which is the same fate that fell upon Budapest after Ottomans conquered it. Both cities have rivers running through them which split them into two halves, and said rivers are the largest in Middle Earth and Europe, respectively. Both cities also happened to be seats of countries (Gondor and Hungary) until said seats moved to the West due to war danger (Minas Tirith / Vienna).

Arnor – Western Roman Empire

Much like Western Roman Empire, Arnor had fallen apart into multiple successor states before each of them finally collapsed under the pressure of external invasions, infighting and depopulation. In another parallel, Arnor had applied to help to Gondor, but that help came too late due to Gondor being preoccupied with its own problems.

Gondor = Eastern Roman Empire, Holy Roman Empire

This depends on the timeframe. Early Gondor is certainly like the Eastern Roman Empire, prospering for the long time after the fall of the Western part (Arnor / Western Roman Empire), but eventually degrading under consistent attacks by the servants of darkness. It also gradually loses many technological secrets that allowed its earlier dominance (steel bows / Greek Fire), but still remains head and shoulders above neighbouring, less civilized peoples. Population of both ERE and Gondor suffered largely because of a plague, civil warfare and external invasions. Later Gondor is much like the Austrian Empire. It is under attack of forces that predominantly originate from the East (Orcs / Ottomans) and just when its capital city is about to fall, it gets saved by a cavalry charge of northern allies. Austria was part of the Holy Roman Empire, which believed itself a successor to the Roman Empire – much like Gondor was a successor to the Kingdom of Numenor. A province of Gondor, Ithilien, could be a parallel for Croatia of the time – a naturally beautiful land, but devastated by the constant warfare with most of it having been conquered by the servants of darkness, and most of the populace escaping to safer Western areas.

Numenor, Arnor, Gondor = Egypt

Arnor and Gondor also draw many elements from the ancient Egypt. Massive architecture (Argonath / Ramesses II statues etc.) as well as division into Northern and Southern kingdoms are obvious ones. Arnor and Gondor are descendant kingdoms (colonies) of Numenor, much like Egypt is theoretized to have some connection to Atlantis. Description of the crown of Gondor has some similarities with the tall white crown of the Upper Egypt. Denethor II, before his death, references the practice of mummification which has clear parallel to Egypt, as do the obsession with death as well as fascination with astronomy that are both described as being characteristic of Numenor as well as Gondor.

Mordor = Turkish (Seljuk, Ottoman) Empire

As noted, Mordor bears a close resemblance to Anatolia. It is also ruled by an angelic being who was corrupted by Devil (Melkor) that later falsely claimed to be a God, whereas Islam was founded by Muhammad, who falsely claimed to be a prophet of God. Sauron’s fighting Orcs are called “Uruk” in the Dark Speech of Mordor, which is similar to “Yuruk”, nomadic tribesmen used as auxiliary soldiers by the Ottomans. It was gunpowder and massive cannons which brought about the fall of the Constantinople, while in Lord of the Rings Saruman utilizes gunpowder (knowledge apparently having been gained from Mordor), while Sauron’s forces besieging Minas Tirith utilize some variant of Greek Fire. Tolkien’s Black Speech is also based on the Turkish language(s). His Elvish language of Quenya was based largely on Finnish language, and Ugro-Finnish people have some connection to Turks, just like Orcs are merely corrupted Elves in the Tolkien legendarium. Islam does not have culture of its own, it steals others’ culture and adapts it to itself, or destroys it if it cannot be adapted. Similarly, Orcs have no culture: they desecrate, vandalize and/or appropriate any high culture they encounter – Sauron wrote inscription on the One Ring in Elvish script, as he had no script of his own fit for such work. Tolkien himself has commented that Orcs are not inherently evil, and Elrond’s description of the War of the Last Alliance states that “every race” but the elves were to be found on both sides of the war. This means that at least some Orcs fought on the side of the Alliance. In the same vein, Turks were not inherently evil; rather, they did evil because they were brainwashed into following evil expansionist ideology – Islam. Uruk-Hai (a name meaning “second” or “new” Uruks) are described as “black-skinned”, which would point to Orcs being Turks or Arabs, as black peoples have adapted Islam only after it was brought by Arabs to North Africa. Much like Arabs and Ottomans, Orcs predominantly use curved scimitars, while Westerners – in both Lord of the Rings and real life – preferred longswords and straight blades in general. There is also racism amongst Orcs themselves, as was the case among various Islamic peoples. Orcs think nothing of beheading their enemies for fun and morale impact, which is a widespread practice of various Muslim armies through history (most recently, ISIL).

The Black Language itself however has many similarities to Hurrian (Hittite) language. Many words are exact parallels, such as “ash”/”she” – one, “-uk”/”-ok-” – fully, truthfully, and others. In Hurran, Sauron would mean “One who is armed”. This also fits with the above, as modern Turkish peoples are the closest people to ancient Hittites.

Rohirrim = Germanic tribes

Rohirrim came to the assistance of Gondor from far north, and were settled on the formerly Gondorian territory of Calenadhon as a pay. This is similar to an arrangement that the fading Roman Empire had with some Germanic tribes. In particular, Rohirrim seem to be based around Anglo-Saxons, being horse-based, with no urban culture, and light-haired. Rohirric language itself is based on Old English.

Rohan = Poland

If one accepts late-stage Gondor to be the Austrian Empire, then Rohirrim clearly take over the role of the Polish Kingdom. Much like Rohan, Poland of the time was largely landlocked country to the north of its main ally in the struggle against Eastern invaders with whom both countries shared borders. Much like Austria, Gondor bore brunt of the enemy attack, with help arriving from their Northern allies. Charge of the Rohirrim at the Battle of Pelennor parallels Polish charge at the Battle of Vienna. Rohan also had a long-standing alliance with Gondor, while at the time of Battle of Vienna in 1683. the Holy Roman Emperor Leopold forged the alliance with Poland in the Treaty of Warsaw of 1683., in which both sides promised to come to each others’ aid if their capitals were threatened.

Shire = England

Shire has a lot of similarities to the British Isles (except, obviously, being landlocked). It is rather green, and is positioned at relatively high latitude. When Arnor fell apart, Hobbits continued to respect old laws of the Kings. Similarly, when Rome pulled its legions out of British Isles, it was largely a peaceful process, legions having been recalled to defend other parts of the Empire, and the Empire itself having recognized its inability to actually defend the isles.

Elves = Scanadinavians

Elvish languages are mostly based on languages of northern Europe. Quenya itself is based on the Finnish language, but with large influence of Latin (and it indeed is Elvish Latin). Sindarin language however is based on the Welsh, a Celtic language. Intentionally or not, this draws an appropriate parallel as Numenoreans, who primarily spoke Sindarin, share Celtic physical characteristics.

Dwarves = Jews

Dwarven words are constructed to be Semitic, as stated by Tolkien himself. They are also master craftsmen and very active traders and merchants. Dwarves also ended up being dispossessed of their land by the people worshipping evil (Orcs / Muslims), and so ended up wandering the world and having to adopt languages of other nations. Much like the Jewish stereotypes (due to Jews having to be bankers in the Medieval times), Dwarves are described as easily falling victim to greed, especially when Rings of Power are involved (see below). However, they unite with Men of the West due to having a common enemy in Orcs (Muslims).

Harad = Africa

“Harad” and “Haradrim” are merely Sindarin terms for “South” and “Southrons”. Land of Harad however stretches well below the equator, as Aragorn notes that “I have had a hard life and a long; and the leagues that lie between here and Gondor are a small part in the count of my journeys. I have crossed many mountains and many rivers, and trodden many plains, even into the far countries of Rhûn and Harad where the stars are strange.”. Haradrim seen in the Two Towers is described as brown-skinned. Much like people of northern Africa, Haradrim used elephants in warfare. Also like many peoples who had converted to Islam, Haradrim followed a fallen Maiar, Sauron, viewing him as a God – that is, their evil was a result of ignorance.

Rhun = Persia, Eastern Europe

Rhun is to the east of Mordor, just how Persia was to the east of the Ottoman Empire. Rhun itself roughly corresponds to Asia, much like Western Middle-Earth corresponds to Europe, Mordor to Asia Minor and Harad to Africa. However, Easterlings are inspired by various cultures, all of them coming from the East. Variags are similar in name to Varyags, Variags or Varangians, the Vikings who ruled the medieval state of Kievan Rus and often attacked the Eastern Roman Empire. It was also said that during the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, a new group of Easterlings appeared who were bearded and used axes, which is a stereotypical description of Vikings. Wainriders on the other hand travelled in wagons, much like Hamaxobioi from the Greek sources or the Scythians. Hamaxobioi or Amaxobioi (Ἁμαξόβιοι) in the Attican spelling were Scythian people, from European Sarmatia, who lived in wagons. Sarmatians themselves were Iranian people, bringing back the connection with Persia.

One Ring = Riches

One Ring, once acquired, quickly becomes person’s treasure, his “Preciousss”. Person, like Aesop’s Miser, treasures the Ring and cannot let it go. Over time, the Ring changes person’s personality, such as turning Smeagol into a murderer. Ring’s influence causes person to deteriorate in moral, human and eventually physical aspects, becoming a slave to the Ring that feeds off said person. Person cannot abandon the Ring, and is always obsessed with thoughts of losing it. But in the end, the Ring serves only its master Sauron (Devil). This is clear parallel to effects that great treasure has on person; all these effects are also duplicated by lesser Rings of Power (Seven and Nine) which got corrupted by Sauron. And much like is the case with real people and their riches, acquiring said treasure in an immoral way significantly speeds up the entire process. Much like money is (and has been since long time) used for purposes of controlling people (debt, obsession…), so does the One Ring take control of the people who carries and uses him. When viewed in such light, Sauron could well be a banker, and Barad-dur would be Wall Street or a similar institution. Much like capitalists and bankers want to destroy nations, melt down different peoples and cultures into one generic whole, so does Sauron want to cover the entire Earth in his darkness. Whether this is intentional or not is unclear. Similarly, Saruman the White becomes Saruman of Many Colours, an uncanny resemblance to the modern “ideal” of multiculturalism and genocide through integration that is threatening to destroy cultural diversity which was always the driving force of human advancement. Soon after that, Saruman started promoting cross breeding between men and orcs. Tolkien (through Treebeard) describes mixing of Western people with Orcs that Saruman has done as “a black evil”.

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25 Responses to “Lord of the Rings and real life equivalents”

  1. Andrei said

    Pretty interesting analysis although I think the Numenor = Britain bit is stretching it. At least at the beginning Numenor had something that collectively Britain never had: wisdom. Also Numenor was ethnically homogeneous, something that Britain never was and never will be. When you say Britain what do you think of: English, Scottish, Irish or Welsh? Cause out of this four one was the exploiter the others where the ones being exploited. I think a better comparison would be between Britain and the Noldor kingdoms of both the First Age and the Second Age: black hair, fighting against easterners, far from benevolent, fighting among themselves for everything, especially for the Crown, which is won by default by the survivor when the main contenders kill each-other (War of Two Roses rings a bell?), exploiting each-other, their Sindarin brethren and their human vassals, and similarly to Britain when Tolkien grew up, moving away from nature by developing industry (by the second Age most Noldors leave in underground kingdom famed for their craftsmanship)

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    • picard578 said

      Britain, as in Celtic Britain, which *was* ethnically homogenous (completely Celtic, with subgroups of Britons and Picts, which could be further subdivided). I have already pointed out that Numenoreans have major physical similarities with Celts, and in Britain, there are still many people who have Celtic physical characteristics (specifically black hair and blue eyes, which are also Numenorean trait). Specifically, people in Western England, Wales and Ireland (maybe Scotland too) tend to have high frequency of black hair and blue eyes: all of those are areas where the original Celtic genome has remained relatively untouched. In the Eastern England, there is greater frequency of blond hair due to Anglo-Saxon immigration. Back at the time I’m talking about, there was no division into “England”, “Scotland”, “Ireland” and “Wales”; only division was between various tribes on the islands. Division between Ireland and Great Britain eventually appeared, but division between England and Scotland only appeared with the Roman Empire, and division between Wales and England appeared only with the fall of that same empire. And yes, Noldor might also have been influenced by the Celts, but everything you wrote also applies to Edain / Numenoreans (black hair? Check. Fighting against the Easterners? Check – during the First Age, threat came from the *North*. It was during the Second and Third age that threat came from the East, and that was also the time when Numenoreans took over the leading role from the Noldor. Far from benevolent? Check – while they were originally benevolent, they turned to imperialism long before Sauron came – Tar-Aldarion started it – and under Sauron’s influence they created worldwide empire (a clear parallel to the British Empire, and something that Noldors never achieved), started practices of slavery and human sacrifice, and many other things. Infighting? Check – first King’s Men against the Faithful, then among kingdoms successors of Arnor, then Gondorian Kinstrife, not to mention the whole Black Numenoreans affair. Exploiting each other and other people? Check – Numenoreans had that whole slavery thing going on in the Middle Earth, and they also enslaved Druedain, who used to be their companions, as well as people of Middle Earth that might have been related to them. Moving away from nature and developing industry? Check – take a look at Tolkien’s works outside the LotR, and you will see that he toyed with the idea of Numenoreans having developed airships and steam engine, and even in canon they did build giant fortresses and ships, and devastated whole forests not unlike Orcs.

      As far as physical characteristics go, these are just few examples, you can find more yourself:
      Patrick Stewart, English:

      Jeremy Young, English:

      Mark Foster, English:

      Pierce Brosnan, Irish:

      And “wisdom” part… well, British did not go out and plunder and colonize people up until the end of Middle Ages, and if you recall Numenor also eventually turned into major imperialistic power and did a lot of evil, so Tolkien got that part right.

      You might also want to read this:
      http://european-celtichistory.weebly.com/
      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2738224/Is-rise-blue-eyes-attractive-Scientists-believe-colour-dominant-like-peacocks-tail.html

      Like

  2. altandmain said

    You could make the case that the Easterlings are of Persian influence. I suppose it also reflects that Persia is to the East of Europe.

    The films show it as well. Look at this:

    This looks like a Sassanid Persian influence in many ways.

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    • picard578 said

      You can’t rely on films for that, too many mistakes in them. But yes, what you say is true. Rhun is to the east of Mordor, just how Persia was to the east of the Ottoman Empire.

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    • altandmain said

      Fair enough – the films were not entirely an accurate representation. The Hobbit was worse in that regard.

      I wonder what the Undying Lands far in the West would fall in as well – heaven, especially after the fall of Numenor due to its corruption by Sauron and its subsequent destruction by Eru?

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    • altandmain said

      The other consideration is that whatever else, the Easterlings were generally militarily quite formindable. During the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, the Easterlings, although far outnumbered by Orcs (there were only 7000 Easterlings and they fought to the last), inflicted very heavy casualties on the Western forces.

      I suppose the other influence may be Mongol.

      Hmm … Tolkien never wrote about what the Easterlings wore did he? In the movies though, they seem to be wearing bronze armor but again it is the films.

      Like

  3. Starwars said

    Lord of the Rings And Reals
    _________________________

    Gandalf = Saint, Patriarch, Pope / Vatican, Patriarchate of Constantinople

    Frodo Baggins = Messiah

    Gondor = Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine)

    Aragorn = Byzantine Emperor

    Sauron = Muhammad , Xerxes I – Mehmed the Conqueror ( Oriental Despotism)

    Saruman = Solomon Prophet, Judaism

    Mordor = Turkey, Ottoman Empire, Seljuk Empire

    Sea of Núrnen = Lake Van / Slavers Humans Armenians,Hamshens and Pontic Greeks

    Orcs = Turks

    Harad = Arabian Peninsula

    Khand = Iran, Afghanistan ,Tajikistan, Pakistan

    Barad-dûr – Dark Tower = Kaaba

    Mount Doom = Hira Mount, ( Jabal al-Nour – Mountain of Light

    One Ring = One Religion and One Book (Quran and İslam )

    The Black eye ,The Red Eye, the Evil Eye, the Lidless Eye, the Great Eye, Sauron eye) = ALLAH

    Like

  4. Burcu said

    I seriosly could not understand if I am reading a LOTR- country explication or fucking İslam vilification… You do not have to belive everything. Fuck you dont even have to believe one thing. But how can you bullshitting around like this? Even if your religion is the correct one, you are still going to hell mate. Your God’s explanation will be : “Well my child, you were in the right religion, but you offend lots of people which I created, you cannot talk without knowing shit so I send you to the Hell with all other Muslims, have fun” you son of a bitch.

    Like

    • Picard578 said

      If every religion is correct, then everybody is going to hell. But I do not see how offending people matters. If you attempt to offend noone, you will have to become a liar. A very good liar.

      Like

  5. Aiden13 said

    With all do respects piscard578 or whoever you are.
    But your Article is cheap as shit.
    If you were a real Tolkien fan you would have read the first introduction of the first book, which goes my mythology has nothing to do with Geography and wordly ideologies.
    People directed Mordor, orcs, and all the darkness shit and all towards many things based upon the period of time at hand.
    First of all it was Nazi Germany and Hitler.
    Then they blamed the Soviet union and its neverending borders.
    And now Turks and Arabs take the place since islamophobia is in bussiness.
    Lets say yea there are (some) map resemblance to our world too( even though Tolkien himself rejects that COMPLETELY) so what?
    It is a simple Narrator system based upon simple self created locations in a completely fictional world.
    There were wars between Gondor and the likes of Haradrim and tbe Easterlings or the ones you reffer to as Persians and Africans before the arival of Sauron, and what came out of those wars?
    Nothing
    simply nothing
    They attacked Gondor
    they captured it
    and lost it
    then Gondor attacked
    the got their lands
    and lost it again
    and it went on over and over again during the second age
    What Tolkien is trying to say is that war between humans no matter where they come from is pointless. And nothing ever comes out of it.
    What the Mordor you call Ottoman Turkey and Sauron as Muhammad is something completely out of idk a personal excuse of you own.
    Orcs bieng Turks??????O_o
    Brother idk how familliar are you with the world.
    Guess not much
    btw Orcs dont typicaly live in Mordor(your Turkey) there are Orcs of many kinds all across middle earth of most of em are in the Misty mountains and Moria(which is FAAAAAAR away from Mordor in the west)
    The ones in Mordor are either miggerated mountain tribes or newly bred ones.
    This alone proves that they are the represntative of nothing but fictional Evil.
    Sauron, his master, his servants, his realm, everything about him is just a narration of evil. And every living soul is to band together to stand against evil no matter be human or anytihing.
    It represent the good of us in real life and that of us which is Evil.
    And to make this more intresting, an amazing legenderium like LOTR comes into bieng.
    Its not a history book.
    Its not an ideology recognizer.
    Hell its not even a story LOL.
    It is a peice of art.
    Art of love, hate, good, Evil.
    And it is international, based on all point of views.
    And I say the movies brought it into a real good sight.
    Im in love with this work. it made all my childhood.
    And made me to see better and feel better.
    And always know what something like power can do to men(how the ring made Nazgul’s out of the 9 great kings of men) as the ring is the one true representative of power.
    Power is good
    but have too much of it and you are no diffrent than Sauron.
    Look at Trump today and his power
    look at Buche and his power
    Look at Putin and his millitary power
    look at China
    Look at Iran and the Mulla’s
    Look at the Chaos they created in Syrria and many other places close to the region
    What makes any of them any diffrent than Sauron and his ring?
    Open your eyes
    And instead of wasting your time bullshitting about a master piece like this out of bordom.
    Watch some tv
    play some video games
    (I advise reading the book for real this time lol)
    And dont try to make us and anyone else disgusted with non existing facts for no matter what you do, No one is going to stop loving LOTR and its whole universe(Movies included)
    Peace.

    Like

    • picard578 said

      Tolkien mixed mythology and history in his work. One does not exclude the other. He himself referred to Gondor as a “kind of Byzantium”, and stated outright that Rohirrim are based on Anglo-Saxons, for example. His various languages also have clear historical basis: Rohirric is based on Anglo-Saxon, Sindarin I think on Welsh, Quenya on Scandinavian languages, and Black Speech on one of the ancient Middle Eastern / Mesopotamian languages, I had forgotten which one exactly. At the same time, Numenor is clearly inspired by the myth of Atlantis.

      People do “direct” orcs, Mordor etc., but that was not my intent. I was simply looking at events and historical basis for his work. It is impossible to deny similarities between e.g. Minas Ithil and Constantinople (long siege, city conquered by the enemy; both cities are associated with a symbol of moon; both cities were an eastern bulwark of relevant civilization before their fall), and Minas Anor and Vienna (short siege, not conquered, saved by cavalry charge of northern allies and further reinforcements from the south and west). I had spelled it out in the post. Such exacting similarities simply do not exist if you compare events and patterns in Lord of the Rings with e.g. World War II / Nazi Germany, Cold War / Soviet Union etc., so your examples do not hold.

      Tolkien did not reject idea that he had historical inspiration for his work. What he did reject was an idea that his work was an allegory for events from his own lifetime – such as World War II. In other words, he rejected an idea that his work was political commentary of contemporary politics.

      You can hardly say that “nothing ever came out of” those wars. Tolkien did not reject war as pointless – through his entire work there is a theme of resistance to encroachment. Sometimes it is successful, sometimes it is not, but you have to defend what is yours – that is the repeating theme in his work. What he did point out is that war is evil, and produces further evil; but he also was aware that it is sometimes necessary. You can hardly call the War of the Last Alliance, for example, as pointless – even though it did not fulfill all of its goals, it still overthrew Sauron and resulted in a long period of (relative) peace. Tar-Minastir’s intervention in Middle Earth is never portrayed as something inherently evil, even if Numenorean involvement there did, with time, produce much evil. The war of elves and men against Morgoth is portrayed as something futile and doomed from the beginning, but also as something noble, if darkened by various acts of evil – it is never, however, portrayed as pointless.

      Orcs are demons; in fact, that, I think is the origin of the word. But just like Wainriders, Balchoth etc. are historically and in terms of the role they play akin to various steppe nomads that had attacked Roman Empire through history, so are orcs – those from Mordor at least – akin to Turks in terms of their role within events of the story.

      Yes, Tolkien did have larger themes in his work. Dangers of concentration of power (represented in Rings of Power); dangers of greed and jealousy (Sauron, Saruman, Ar-Pharazon/Numenor); self-destructive nature of revenge and of pride (Feanor and his sons)… but in no way does that exclude historical inspiration of his work.

      “Open your eyes”… I will just throw that right back at you.

      Like

      • Aiden 13 said

        I can pick a thousand. And I say again a thousand, similar historical events based on your prevoius depictions.
        All of them could resemble the same event.
        But no, Im sure you just like to stick with the Byzantium vs Ottoman kinda a thing:)
        I respect your opinion ma, I really do.
        But this conversation ends right here.
        You are not the first to think of something like this, and you will not be the last.
        As for the language inspirations, I suggest you follow the Tolkiens gateway website, Bloody brilliant I tell you.
        No matter what I tell you, you wont change your mind, and you know I wont either;)
        Take a stroll over the books again, my advice.
        Take care my friend.

        Like

  6. Aiden 13 said

    The truth is, Similarities can be found everywhere.
    Lets say we look at everything from your prespective.
    Lets say the Orcs are Turks. And the West is the actual west.
    The Easterlings and the other humans (who you depicted as Persians, Arabs,and…)
    Do you know at the very same time when Byzantium and Constantinopol was under siege by the Ottomans, Persia under the rule of Shah Abbas Safavid was also cornered in a massive Turk invasion of the Ottomans.
    After several defeats and retreats dou to the superior millitary technology of the Ottomans, the Persians lost ground and the Turks took hold of what is today Azarbaijan.
    Eventually a decade after that, Shah Abbas gathered all the men he could and in a fair fight, they drove the Ottomans back from their lands, and freed the enslaved population in those regions.
    He then vowed to never allow another Mongol invasion (that occured back in the day of the Kharazmians)ever happen again to Persia and he reffered to the Turks and the Ottoman as the same as Mongol khans just with a diffrent name and color.
    Eventually Persians/Easterlings niether joined the Orcish/Turkish cause, but they were highly opposing it.
    Which means if we look at your prespective, Both Gondor and Rhun had a common enemy which they fought against it with bitter will and hatred.
    Speaking of Hatred, What you are doing right here is Demonizing, not comparing, and Tolkien a man of that intelligeance, of that respectful, of that super high educated. Would never even think or approve of demonization of an actual historical faction against the other. That is pretty much what some one like Frank Miller did with his 300, some how Demonizing both sides but one side completely. Are you really going to say, Tolkien is the same as Miller? Or no wait 300 had some accuracies that are correct, where Tolkien doese not. So now Tolkien is even lesser than Miller in history? LOL
    Look man, Im a novelist myself and my job has a lot to do with history and society.
    Demonizers like Frank Miller are joke to me. He had a good excuse I made a fantasy story and I say again not trying to offend anyone, it is based on a period of history of an actual and non actual event. he commented: if you want reality catch a ducumetry.
    But you and me, we both know what Miller says is bullshit right? And it was another one of those West vs East which is really a joke to everyone(Unless one turns out to be klansmen of the KKK and those assholes seem to take jokes seriously)
    I will never bow to the thought that Tolkien was trying to demonize history and facts like what you people do these days.
    If you take a look at the entire setting of the storyline from the very beggining, nothing then would make sense.
    Yes, I agree in similarities, but basis? Hell No.
    I take it the land of the Undying is America and thats where the elves call home now lol.
    Dwarves as jews, Im pretty sure the men of Dale would be the Russians in your prespective right?
    Now explain how come Erebor as a land for jews is north of Russia.
    Or how Moria or Gundabad is at the very heart of the west in the misty mountains?
    Where is the misty mountains in your eyes?(certainly not the Alps lol)
    Where is Mirkwood and the wood elves along with the Beornings?
    Who are the people of Ghan-Buri-Ghan who assisted Theoden even though his people hunted them down for sport and they barely resembled a man?
    Who are the Orcs of the north?(the one birth place of them, they all bred and migrated to Mordor with their masters calling but they were not natives of the East, Im also forgetting the fact that they were elves once thanks to your prespective)
    Where is Angmar, north pole?
    Where is Rivindel?(Cant be Camelot can it)?
    Numenor did sinck to the sea but so did all of Beleriand.(Similar to Atlantis? Yes but not actual IT. lol again)
    Atlantians are an unkhown civilization to man, no one knows who lives there or old, no one even knows if it is real at all or no still.Numenor seemed pretty real, Numernorians seemed pretty real,
    they were the true fathers of all men.
    Im sure Tolkien never thought of Atlantis that way.
    Now explain to me Dol Guldour.
    (And please dont say Transylvania)
    What you are doing here, is just comparing a very minor part of the whole plot which is the war with Mordor and Gondor with actual historical events, which is fine and I say there is a plethora of similarities, but no actual basis.
    Tolkien would have said so if there was anything like that, who was he suppoes to be afraid of back then? no one.
    Look Piscar, I like you, you are so dedicated to what you believe and you are nothing like those ignorants in reddit with their comment wars.
    I almost forgot. About languages.
    What you said about the inspiration were all true. Yes all were based on old Anglo-Saxon and Norse speeches, for Tolkien was a talented linguist.
    And yes Black speech is inspired by Mesopotamian Hittie language, which is a non Indo-Europian native tongue of the people who lived north and south of Anatolia.
    But we know that black speech is a degraded level of what is the Valarin language of the Ainor.
    And many linguists say that there are many gramatical extenses in Valarin which is simmilar to ancient Babylonian or Akkadian.(Also in Mesopotamian territory)
    The question remains, why would Tolkien make Hurrian based upon the language of the Godly biengs of his story?
    Doese it mean Akkadians were far more older and more superior to everyone like the Valar?(of whom the likes are Melkor and Sauron)
    Queniya and Sindarin based upon Norse people. Elves are the true and only total good guys of the story(Your Turks/orcs also ascended from them)Back in the day what is known of Norse people is not civilization but Barbarism, Vikings razed and pillaged all of Europe terrorizing its denizens for over centuries.(Not the elves I know)
    You say Rohirim/Anglo-Saxon as the Pols who came at the aid of Byzantum. Where exactly did the Slavs of Poland turn into Saxons?
    Funny thing is Tolkien once himself compared Gondor and its Culture with ancient Egypt as well, I never really read anything about him and Byzantium but here and the dark world of internet.
    As for cultural inspirations, Peter Jackson said we designed the Haradrim as an ispiration by both Aztec and Arabian clothings.
    Easterlings inspired by both Roman and Sassanid Persian clothing and battle formation.
    Orcs are not even inspired by anything in the film they are fully made up in culture, clothing and…
    Inspiration means being inspired or intrested in a way or facture, not trying to base. That is pretty much how Epic Fantasy is always based upon. We see the designers saying the Lannister Armor in GOT is inspired by Samurai armor. That mean Lannisters are Samurai?
    Even though Tolkien never truly explained how Easterlings and Haradrim looked like, like having Turbans and wood armor and all that.
    He only says were dark and tanned skin and scientifiy people coming from sunny places are always less light than those in less sunny places.
    Why Mordor in the East?
    Tolkien gave a good answer to that as well. He says it happened to be in that direction dou to the simple way of my narrative style begining all the way from Silmarilion to LOTR.
    He says the true evil is and always will be in the North.(Angbad)
    And Sauron was nothing but a humble servant of Melkor. And we know Mordor was a rock layer which took shape after the fall of Beleriand dou to Volcanic activities and took place East of Gondor eons before the comming of Sauron, and it was mainly populated by Shelob and the spwans of Angoliant (Spiders)
    Mordor can be depicted as anywhere, with these circumstances.
    Im not gonna shoot “Open your eyes” again at you back.
    Cause like I said, you will keep to your belief, and me mine.
    And Im not trying to change that.
    Im not gonna reply you back after this friend cause nothing is more clear than what I just put up.
    Tolkien was an escapist, as am I.
    Fantasy is where you live by putting your ordinary way of life and thought away just to bask in somewhere else. No matter who you are or where are you from, Fantasy is international in all forms. It is 2019 like I said and for a story that is possibly the first work of fantasy recorded in the early 19’s, we will have diffrent interprentation in newer generations.
    I posted before, do check Tolkiens gateway.
    Farewell friend.

    Like

    • picard578 said

      “Which means if we look at your prespective, Both Gondor and Rhun had a common enemy which they fought against it with bitter will and hatred.”

      That may well have been what happened. Unfortunately, we have no PoV from Far East. We do know that one of the Istari went there, however, so we have indications there were indeed people there fighting against Sauron.

      “Speaking of Hatred, What you are doing right here is Demonizing, not comparing, and Tolkien a man of that intelligeance, of that respectful, of that super high educated. Would never even think or approve of demonization of an actual historical faction against the other. That is pretty much what some one like Frank Miller did with his 300, some how Demonizing both sides but one side completely. Are you really going to say, Tolkien is the same as Miller? Or no wait 300 had some accuracies that are correct, where Tolkien doese not. So now Tolkien is even lesser than Miller in history? LOL”

      And Tolkien pointed out that good people will fight for bad causes (that Haradrim soldier that Sam sees die, and Sam’s thoughts on the topic). But that does not change the fact that they are fighting for a bad cause, nor does it change Tolkien’s inspiration.

      “I will never bow to the thought that Tolkien was trying to demonize history and facts like what you people do these days.”

      He was not demonizing history. Frankly, Ottoman Empire was bad enough that it didn’t NEED to be demonized.

      “If you take a look at the entire setting of the storyline from the very beggining, nothing then would make sense.”

      Entire setting =/= Lord of the Rings. Tolkien had different inspirations, that does not mean inspirations I have identified are wrong.

      “I take it the land of the Undying is America and thats where the elves call home now lol.”

      No, Land of the Undying is probably Avalon. It was called “Land of Fruit Trees”, and Valinor was lit by the Trees.

      “Dwarves as jews, Im pretty sure the men of Dale would be the Russians in your prespective right?”

      Possibly. I do not know enough about Dale to comment.

      “Now explain how come Erebor as a land for jews is north of Russia.”

      Erebor is not Dwarven land. It is merely *one of* Dwarven kingdoms. As for it being in the north:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukharan_Jews

      “Or how Moria or Gundabad is at the very heart of the west in the misty mountains?”

      Moria used to be Dwarven kingdom. Gundabad is in the north.

      “Where is Mirkwood and the wood elves along with the Beornings?”

      Parallels are primarily cultural and situational, not geographic. Beornings are Northmen. So they are either Germanic or Scandinavian group. As for elves, they come from Scandinavian legends.

      “Who are the people of Ghan-Buri-Ghan who assisted Theoden even though his people hunted them down for sport and they barely resembled a man?”

      They are based on mythological woodwooses. Nothing to do with human politics.

      “Who are the Orcs of the north?(the one birth place of them, they all bred and migrated to Mordor with their masters calling but they were not natives of the East, Im also forgetting the fact that they were elves once thanks to your prespective)”

      My post was about LotR inspirations, not First Age.

      “Numenor did sinck to the sea but so did all of Beleriand.(Similar to Atlantis? Yes but not actual IT. lol again)”

      Beleriand is more similar to lands that sunk under sea after the Ice Age (e.g Mediterranean basin). Sunk lands are actually fairly common in Celtic mythology: Lyonesse, Ys…
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lost_lands

      “Atlantians are an unkhown civilization to man, no one knows who lives there or old, no one even knows if it is real at all or no still.Numenor seemed pretty real, Numernorians seemed pretty real,”

      Check legend of Atlantis. Tolkien based a lot on legends, and the most common placing of Atlantis is “beyond Heraclean columns”, which is to say, in Atlantic.

      “What you are doing here, is just comparing a very minor part of the whole plot which is the war with Mordor and Gondor with actual historical events, which is fine and I say there is a plethora of similarities, but no actual basis.”

      Eh, there is very definite inspiration drawn from it. Such as Charge of Winged Hussars = Charge of Rohirrim. There were 18 000 cavalrymen, of which 3 000 Winged Hussars. Theoden had 6 000 cavalrymen at Pelennor.

      “Doese it mean Akkadians were far more older and more superior to everyone like the Valar?(of whom the likes are Melkor and Sauron)”

      Considering how first advanced civilization appeared in the Fertile Crescent, I would not be surprised if Tolkien thought so.

      “Queniya and Sindarin based upon Norse people. Elves are the true and only total good guys of the story(Your Turks/orcs also ascended from them)Back in the day what is known of Norse people is not civilization but Barbarism, Vikings razed and pillaged all of Europe terrorizing its denizens for over centuries.(Not the elves I know)”

      Norse were actually quite civilized in many ways. But Elves (and Dwarves) are based on Scandinavian legends, albeit former are also heavily influenced by Tuatha De Dannan of Celtic mythology.

      And unless you limit yourself to LotR, Elves are not “total good guys” either. They screwed up a lot as well.

      “You say Rohirim/Anglo-Saxon as the Pols who came at the aid of Byzantum. Where exactly did the Slavs of Poland turn into Saxons?”

      You are comparing their cultural influences to their role in the story. These are two different things.

      “Inspiration means being inspired or intrested in a way or facture, not trying to base. That is pretty much how Epic Fantasy is always based upon. We see the designers saying the Lannister Armor in GOT is inspired by Samurai armor. That mean Lannisters are Samurai?”

      Eh, Game of Thrones screwed up a lot of source material. It is no better for discussing ASoIaF than LotR movies are for discussing books.

      Like

      • Aiden 13 said

        You did not answer my most motivious questions.
        There are northern Orcs and goblins at the same time at LOTR plot.
        You cant seriously depict AALL of them as Turks even with your own prespective.
        And you also failed to tell me what is exactly Dol Guldour and Angmar.
        Surely your Commander Mustafa/The witch-king did not live at that time to lead a an army of all manner of creatures in the mid of winter was he?
        You say not mistake role of the story with cultural influence well sir that is what you are almost doing yourself.
        Im not saying Im supporting Ottoman empire, hell no I know all the evils they did the genocide on my people(Im Armenian Persian)and they got away with it till this day. The terrors the Turks inflicted upon Persia and our most solid civilization.
        But wouldnt you, yourself, be laughing just to think about Tolkien wrote this whole story, this whole thing, just to point out at the end that the Turks fell and BOOM Europe won, and everyone lived happily ever after?
        In Tolkiens gateway there are mentions of Tolkiens bieng also inspired by Zorestoreism. In Zorestors religion there is a basis on light vs Dark. it was always the same belief in ancient Persia, people choosing light over darkness. Light bieng Good thought, good deeds, and good words. You can take Sauron as Ahriman or the devil who is the source of all darkness and corruption.
        Eventually there are good vs bad in all cultures.
        Believe me even the Ottoman Turks and all the evil they inflicted believed that they are doing good.
        The story of Tolkien is not West vs East
        no thats crap for Frank Miller.
        The story is good vs evil
        And there are many goods vs evil
        Not just Turkey vs Italy
        Alexander the great attacked Persia and burned Perspolis to the ground, I call that evil.
        Xerxes burned Athens centuries past, a deed none of his forfathers commited and I as a persian call that evil.
        The Templars and Tuotonic knight raped and slaughtered 100’ of thousands of non Christians in Middle-East and in east europe, I call that evil.
        Evil has many forms and many ways.
        Saruman and his Uruks are their own which is industrilization that was occuring almost everywhere.
        Sauron, doing what his master started before him, eclipsing the world in darkness.
        Those who sided with him were either enslaved by his corruption or had no choice.
        All of whom freed and became a part of the reunited kingdom after the war of the ring.
        See piscar it is only good vs evil.
        You may put anything you depict as evil on one side and the other if you want.
        You chose Ottomans.
        Believe me no one can hate Ottomans more me and my people do.
        But I see evil vs good just as what it always is in Zoarestor.
        Nazi Germany, Soviet union, Ottoman empire, and… yea you can picture all of them in that side.
        And you say Im talking about LOTR not first age, well buddy everything took shape in the first age, as well as the Orc/Turks.
        And Mustafa was a Numenorian.
        Im actually laughing right now as Im writing all this.
        But like I said, ispiration is not the same as equalities.
        Turkey today has a large community of Tolkien fans. You think they ever gonna buy what you an I are talking about here?
        To Talkien, evil is greed, evil is supremacy, evil is industry, evil is war, and you can see it all in his works.
        Movies might give people silly ideas and some reading the books will also get pissed at first glance.
        But to know some one like Tolkien is to know life itself, not history.
        Eventually there are many more factions in the book I mentioned you could find equivalents for. I dont do, cause its pointless(but fun, I give you that)
        Comparison to real world will ruin any fantasy.

        Like

        • picard578 said

          “There are northern Orcs and goblins at the same time at LOTR plot.
          You cant seriously depict AALL of them as Turks even with your own prespective.”

          Sorry, I answer these when taking a rest from other things I do so I miss things.

          Tolkien’s world is based on languages as well as geography. Black Speech is based on Hurrian language from Mesopotamia, which itself is related to Northeast Caucasian language, which among other things includes Avar language. So yes, Orcs are not Turks – they would be closer to image that settled peoples had of Avars and other nomadic invaders – but Mordor as such quite clearly plays the role of Ottoman Empire and is based on it. And keep in mind that Mordor is more than Orcs (there were humans in Mordor as well), and Orcs are more than Mordor (as you point out).

          “And you also failed to tell me what is exactly Dol Guldour and Angmar.”

          Plot devices. Dol Guldur comes from the Hobbit, which actually originally was not part of Lord of the Rings mythos (but related to it, and was shoehorned into it very effectively). As for Angmar, Tolkien required something that would destroy Arnor, which is Western Roman Empire equivalent; so Angmar plays the role of Germanic tribes / kingdoms that overran the West.

          “But wouldnt you, yourself, be laughing just to think about Tolkien wrote this whole story, this whole thing, just to point out at the end that the Turks fell and BOOM Europe won, and everyone lived happily ever after?”

          He wrote the story to provide England with mythology. But that does not mean he was not inspired by real life. To use an (at the time) non-history-related example, Dead Marshes were inspired by Tolkien’s experience of trench warfare in World War I.

          “In Tolkiens gateway there are mentions of Tolkiens bieng also inspired by Zorestoreism. In Zorestors religion there is a basis on light vs Dark. it was always the same belief in ancient Persia, people choosing light over darkness. Light bieng Good thought, good deeds, and good words. You can take Sauron as Ahriman or the devil who is the source of all darkness and corruption.”

          That indeed is what Sauron is, although he is actually closer to Christian idea of Devil (a fallen Angel). But do you really think Tolkien’s mythos would have been as rich if he limited himself to religious and mythological inspirations?

          “The story of Tolkien is not West vs East
          no thats crap for Frank Miller.
          The story is good vs evil
          And there are many goods vs evil
          Not just Turkey vs Italy
          Alexander the great attacked Persia and burned Perspolis to the ground, I call that evil.
          Xerxes burned Athens centuries past, a deed none of his forfathers commited and I as a persian call that evil.
          The Templars and Tuotonic knight raped and slaughtered 100’ of thousands of non Christians in Middle-East and in east europe, I call that evil.”

          And all of that exists in Tolkien as well. It is an incorrect – albeit widespread – image that Westerners are uniformly good in Tolkien’s works. But Rohirrim persecuted Dunlendings, and in Second Age Numenoreans conquered much of the world and practiced Aztec-like ritual sacrifice. West is good in Lord of the Rings “present day”, true, but that is far from universal in Tolkien’s work. Ultimately, Tolkien was aware of human capacity for evil, and in his work even elves – who many see as perfect – do quite a few evil deeds (read Silmarillion to see what I’m talking about). DUnlendings join Saruman in his attacks on Rohan – because Rohirrim persecuted and finally expelled them from Calenadhorn / Riddermark. Hardly black-and-white.

          “Saruman and his Uruks are their own which is industrilization that was occuring almost everywhere.”

          True. He also touches that theme in his story of Numenor as well.

          “You may put anything you depict as evil on one side and the other if you want.
          You chose Ottomans.
          Believe me no one can hate Ottomans more me and my people do.”

          I “chose” Ottomans because I saw historical inspiration in Tolkien’s work.
          Take a look at similarities – both situational (storyline) and geographical – between Minas Tirith / Vienna, Osgilliath / Budapest and Minas Anor / Constantinople. I’m not going to elaborate now, I think I already did in the text.

          “But I see evil vs good just as what it always is in Zoarestor.”

          I do not think that would have been sufficient to build a world as complex as that of Tolkien. Human imagination is limited – he must have had inspiration. Much like Martin did for A Song of Ice and Fire.

          “Turkey today has a large community of Tolkien fans. You think they ever gonna buy what you an I are talking about here?”

          Probably not. But people are very good at being willingly ignorant. Just take a look at all arguments that “Islam is a religion of peace” (yeah, LOL), “United States are spreading democracy” (Byzantine Empire was probably more democratic than US – read Kaldellis’ “Byzantine Republic”), European Union prevented World War III (until it falls apart, nevermind that WWII was merely a delayed episode of WWI, and WWI was caused by colonialism just like previous global conflicts in shape of Seven Years’ War and Napoleonic Wars – and no country has colonies any more)…

          “To Talkien, evil is greed, evil is supremacy, evil is industry, evil is war, and you can see it all in his works.”

          I am not denying that. But such generalist ideas and concepts are not enough to build a story around.

          “But to know some one like Tolkien is to know life itself, not history.”

          You need to know both. Fantasy is always inspired by history.

          “Comparison to real world will ruin any fantasy.”

          Actually, I think that trying to find where author drew inspirations from enriches fantasy, or at least understanding of it. Even if you reach wrong conclusions, it will still make you think about what is below the surface level, and that is important. But to each their own, I guess.

          Like

  7. Aiden 13 said

    Thank you for keep answering my quotes. I really appreciated.
    Wow, we are finally having a wonderful conversation here. It appears we do agree on many levels after all
    Almost everything mentioned above by you again is correct in my opinion as well.
    (Im not gonna make this reffer to the story of Tolkien again) but yes, I agree, Islam is not a religion mainly about peace, from the moment of its foundation only massacres occured and older and purer and nobler civilizations(Rome,Byzantium,Egypt,Persia)all fell before it.
    And I also agree on most of the themes you mentioned as well so happy to finaly have some agrrements.
    From what I finally understand from you, is that you say no Orcs are not Turks or even anything close to bieng them but something more, and in the plot of the story in Mordor they are playing the role of Ottomans(At some points yea like I said many resemblance to many things can be picked so neither you or me are not entirely wrong)But that is something we need to ask the Proffessor himself, were sadly we cannot, and one of my greatest wishes always was(and still is)to one day meet him in person.
    So, about language I must say that, Black speech and Valarin bieng inspired by Hurrian would not typically mean it is meant to represent Hurrian, for people of that line no longer exist for they were super ancient and all their civilizations and people associated with them have passed on to legends and history.(Like I said black speech is the same yet degraded version of the devine language of Valarin)
    So, we say Mordor as Turkey(btw, the humans in Mordor you mentioned were actually Saurons slaves from conquered lands of Harad,Rhun,and Khand, whom Aragorn frees and gives them the land so typically they wont count as native denizens of Mordor)And Mordors true Denizens are Shelob and her Children. Where as we know Anatolia which is todays Turkey, was actually populated by Mesopotamians and Hittie Hurrians, long before even the arival of indo-Europeans(Aryan people).
    So Mordor is nothing but a Volcanic eruption out of Angbad in the far far north.
    Tolkien says the placing of Mordor in the east was dou to the narration for the west was mostly populated by Saurons enemies and if he wanted to settle there he would not be far from harm.
    So Eastern lands were colonized by the Numenorians(and later on black numenorians)whom many claim they are the main reason of the Easterlings and Haradrim hatred of the west dou a ages of slavery and tyranny of the Numenorians.
    So Saurons coming to Mordor led to the foundation of the black land, and he gathered Orcs and Trolls, NOT FROM THE EAST(I say again not east) But far north and west to occupy the land.
    The Ottomans founded Turkey dou the vast Migeration of the Nomadic and barbaric Seljuki and Mongolic nations in the far east(doesnt sound pretty Orcish to me)
    And the siege of Constantionopole happened only a few decades before the Settling of the Turks. And basically Byzantium is todays Turkey and Turks did not have a land of their own(no Mordor lol)and Byzantum eventually became that.
    The East in middle earth was not only populated by Men, but also many of the Dwarf famillies(and possibly Avari elves) in the greatly far east. And many of these Dwarves could have served Sauron for a group of those Dwarves(Easterling with Beards bieg short with large axes)did apear in the siege of Minas Tirith doing Saurons bidding.
    So since Turks had no land for their own, Mordor/Turkey would have not existed until the downfall of what is Gondor/byzantium(and finally Mordor)
    And eons before the siege of minas tirith, Mordor existed. Sauron invaded both Numenor and Eregion from there(Gondor was not even founded)Where was Mordor then? Who were the Orcs of Mordor then?
    And where was Mordor during the Battle of the last Alliance?
    And the time it was empited for centuries before Sauron return in the end of the 3rd age.
    I agree with everything you mentioned exapt the following ones here for they make no actual sense and I found no other natural scources(even the one you sent me)bieng quoted by the Professor himself that what you say here has any sort of value at all or no(not even mine who knows)
    And do note I have no reason to back the Turks and Ottomans here. Im not one of em and Im not associated with one at any rate either.

    Like

    • picard578 said

      “From what I finally understand from you, is that you say no Orcs are not Turks or even anything close to bieng them but something more, and in the plot of the story in Mordor they are playing the role of Ottomans(At some points yea like I said many resemblance to many things can be picked so neither you or me are not entirely wrong)But that is something we need to ask the Proffessor himself, were sadly we cannot, and one of my greatest wishes always was(and still is)to one day meet him in person.”

      Indeed.

      “So, we say Mordor as Turkey(btw, the humans in Mordor you mentioned were actually Saurons slaves from conquered lands of Harad,Rhun,and Khand, whom Aragorn frees and gives them the land so typically they wont count as native denizens of Mordor)And Mordors true Denizens are Shelob and her Children. Where as we know Anatolia which is todays Turkey, was actually populated by Mesopotamians and Hittie Hurrians, long before even the arival of indo-Europeans(Aryan people).”

      True again.

      “So Eastern lands were colonized by the Numenorians(and later on black numenorians)whom many claim they are the main reason of the Easterlings and Haradrim hatred of the west dou a ages of slavery and tyranny of the Numenorians.”

      Actually, it was southern lands that were colonized by King’s Men, whereas lands north of mouth of Anduin were colonized by the Faithful, as King’s Men would not settle within the reach of power of Gil-Galad.

      “So Saurons coming to Mordor led to the foundation of the black land, and he gathered Orcs and Trolls, NOT FROM THE EAST(I say again not east) But far north and west to occupy the land.”

      Actually, Sauron himself had basis of power in the East, and then he moved West – to Mordor – in order to fortify it against Numenoreans. Unless you are thinking of Third Age and Dol Guldur?

      “And the siege of Constantionopole happened only a few decades before the Settling of the Turks. And basically Byzantium is todays Turkey and Turks did not have a land of their own(no Mordor lol)and Byzantum eventually became that.”

      Not sure what you are trying to say, but IIRC Turks migrated to Anatolia from Central Asia or somewhere around there.

      “The East in middle earth was not only populated by Men, but also many of the Dwarf famillies(and possibly Avari elves) in the greatly far east. And many of these Dwarves could have served Sauron for a group of those Dwarves(Easterling with Beards bieg short with large axes)did apear in the siege of Minas Tirith doing Saurons bidding.”

      I believe those Easterlings were Men, not Dwarves, but I may be wrong. At any rate, dwarves did serve Sauron – there is mention of them in Battle of Dagorlad IIRC.

      “So since Turks had no land for their own, Mordor/Turkey would have not existed until the downfall of what is Gondor/byzantium(and finally Mordor)”

      I stated that Gondor is actually a combination of Eastern Roman Empire and Holy Roman Empire. Siege of Constantinople is paralleled in LotR by Siege of Minas Ithil – which then became Minas Morgul, much like Constantinople was renamed Istanbul. Siege of Minas Tirith is parallel of Siege of Vienna.

      “And eons before the siege of minas tirith, Mordor existed. Sauron invaded both Numenor and Eregion from there(Gondor was not even founded)Where was Mordor then? Who were the Orcs of Mordor then?
      And where was Mordor during the Battle of the last Alliance?
      And the time it was empited for centuries before Sauron return in the end of the 3rd age.”

      As I said before, inspiration =/= exact parallel. Tolkien’s work is much more complex than A Song of Ice and Fire which indeed can be rather closely paralleled with Wars of the Roses.

      Like

      • Aiden 13 said

        Im happy that we are both Tolkien fans, for a minute there I was about to mistaken you for one of those low lifes who hear something and make up illustrations.
        I did enjoy this conversation but there might still be a bit of a diffrence in our opinions yet, but you did agree with most of my depictions and I yours was quiet close to mine.
        Cheers.:))))))

        Liked by 1 person

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